This was my interview with the Executive Producers from Constantine. I asked a question to David S Goyer regarding the rumors on Constantine and the bisexual erasure that has been floating around the internet.
I tried to keep my question respectful, as I’m a junior journalist, and didn’t want to rock the boat. …getting accused of being a fake geek girl, being told that because he wasn’t bisexual until 12 years into the comics it doesn’t really matter….was not what I expected. The guy picked a fight with me, and as someone who genuinely has loved his screen writing work, I was really disappointed.
I understand that he may be defensive, given the amount of questions he’s been getting on the subject recently, but speaking to me like this wasn’t…called for?
I will say the other producer, Daniel Cerone, was very nice and gracious, as was the entirety of the cast. I can only hope that Mr. Goyer was just running on little sleep.
But still, some of my followers wanted me to ask the question, and I did. Here is your answer. (Also I know I should have said Vertigo, not Image—that I got some of my facts wrong, but I was a bit flustered, so I think I can be forgiven the mistake).
I think the absolute worst part of this is the fact that both of them (meaning the producers, not Mr. Goyer and the interviewer) seem to be implying that the only way to explicitly acknowledge his bisexuality onscreen is to have him sleep with a man. That and the fact that he is basically saying over and over again that bisexuality is just unimportant (and yes, that really is the implication of “it’s unimportant to the character” it really really is.) Apparently being a smoker has waaaaay more affect on what kind of person someone is. That’s new information to me.
I won’t be watching this show and I honestly just utterly loathe this bigoted sack of shit who is reponsible for it
Any clueless fucking moron who thinks that a characters sexuality is ‘unimportant’ is the kind of cretin whose work I am not going to have ANY interest or desire to support with either my time or my money
Honestly seeing this bullshit from David S Goyer doesn’t surprise me in the least. I don’t know whether he’s got a problem with bisexuals or whether he’s just being a good boy and doing what the network tells him because their too fucking cowardly, WEAK and SPINELESS to have an openly bisexual hero starring in their show and he’s too pathetic to insist upon it…nor do I care. I loathe COWARDS as much as I despise bigots
Either way, I’m not wasting one second of my time on watching Constantine
You know why he wasn’t shown as bi until 12 years into the comic? BECAUSE THE CHARACTER WAS INTRODUCED IN 1985!! Are they seriously advancing the argument that his bisexuality isn’t important because it wasn’t part of the original story — which was written during the height of panic and misinformation about AIDS, in which gay and bisexual men were regularly demonized in media with virulent homophobia?
It isn’t 1985 any more and these excuses just don’t cut it. Especially not when delivered with a smug grin like David S. Goyer is excited to have a ‘gotcha!’. The cultural climate today is VASTLY different then in 1985. I don’t think he realizes how awful that makes him and his show look that they are building excuses around what was a really dark time for the queer community.
Also I’m not sure I understand what Daniel Cerone is saying about making the story darker and the lack of interference from NBC. It doesn’t really help their case. Is he arguing that no one at NBC told them to strip the bi from John Constantine? Because then it sounds like the change is just coming from their personal prejudices against bi men. There are more ways to show a character is bi then to have him jump in bed with a dude. Seriously. Your excuse is ‘it’s not network pressure we’re just lazy writers’?
David Goyer is canon a massive tool.
Also, they suck at math. Hellblazer #51 was March 1992. That’s seven years, not 12 (and it took me 21 to come out so they can kiss my heiney. Like no one’s ever stayed in the closet a while).
Ok, I’m not that into comics and I’m getting my information from wikipedia so fair warning there, but there was a ban on depicting homosexual characters until 1989. The ban on referring to homosexuality was revised in 1989 to allow non-stereotypical depictions of gays and lesbians.
Constantine came out of the closet when he was ALLOWED to come out of the closet.
This whole thing just utterly baffles me for so many reasons. First its like, I understand why NBC wants to capitalize on the comic book craze going on right now. But there are a zillion hetero male comic book heroes they could have chosen to do an adaptation of. Why choose Constantine, if what you wanted a heterosexual lead? Why not just pick a different comic series to do an adaptation of? And, assuming they’re making him heterosexual through the logic they don’t want to ‘alienate’ part of the potential audience, I’m thinking to myself a) the whole reason you DO an adaptation in the first place is name recognition. If the audience you are trying to court are people who are already fans of the comics, they PROBABLY aren’t going to be offended or alienated if keep him bisexual. And b) honestly, the other themes of the story make it unlikely that uber conservative, religious people were ever going to be a major audience demographic for the show ANYWAYS. Sure, a few random homophobes here and there might have found the idea off-putting enough to avoid the show, but not enough to constitute a significant audience constituency.
My ultimate point with all of this is that it doesn’t seem strategically smart from ANY angle you look at it. They’re getting all kinds of negative press for this, plenty of potential audience members have already said they aren’t going to watch solely because of this bullshit about censoring his sexuality. And there is no significant upside to it, other than to make the straight men writing the story more comfortable. Constantine being bisexual was NEVER going to alienate large segments of the potential audience. Not making him bisexual is already alienating a large segment of it. So what’s the calculus here? If what NBC wants is viewers for this show, making him straight is a bad plan, just from a business standpoint, if nothing else. I don’t get why that isn’t blindingly clear. I mean, I am outraged about it from a principled stand-point, don’t get me wrong. But the fact that it is clearly a bad business decision in addition to being condemnable on the basis of principle is doubly aggravating.
But I’m not hearing all that in the video? David Goyer is defensive and a little aggressive, yes, but he also says “We’re not saying he’s NOT”. Benevolently interpreted, that could mean they don’t want to reveal (or aren’t sure yet themselves) where they’re taking it in the future. And I didn’t hear either of them say sexuality was unimportant to the character?
I’m not defending them. I agree this smells of bi-erasure which is loathsome. But this particular video clip isn’t really much to go on.
I often see these phrases misspelled:
- A lot (not “alot”*)
- All of a sudden (not “all of the sudden”)
- Could have/should have/would have or could’ve/should’ve/would’ve (not “could of/should of/would of”)
- Every once in a while (not “every once and a while”)
- For all intents and purposes (not “for all intensive purposes”)
- In fact (not “infact”)
- One and the same (not “one in the same”)
- Supposed to/used to (not “suppose to/use to”)
* Bonus link: The Alot is Better Than You at Everything
Shudder, not shutter (when you mean shiver)
Hear, hear! not Here, here! (as a cry of approval)
Definitely, not defiantly (when you mean decidedly)
"I did a convention in Seattle. I don’t know what it was I said or what transpired, I don’t know what it was. But people got upset and I feel like it was really unfair, what was said.
First of all, I think the term “queerbaiting” is not accurate. It pissed me off, because I feel like a real champion of that community with all those letters [LGBTQA] - you know, I’ve officiated gay weddings. Also, I don’t understand what the term means.”
— Misha Collins at NJCon 2013
The whole quote is here on youTube.
Let me state first of all that I respect Misha a lot for this comment. I’ve rarely seen celebrities respect slash fandom to a degree where they will engage in a serious discussion about the issues slash fans bring up at cons, often in a less-than-rational fashion. So hey, go Misha. Thanks for engaging. Here’s my answer. It’s long, but keep reading. It’ll all come together in the end.
I’ve had this in my bookmarks to read for AGES but only JUST got round to it.
This sounds like a fair summary of the situation to me and why Dean/Cas becoming explicit canon, or at the very least Dean being explicitly bisexual, would be great great thing for LGBTQ+ representation (which is, in my personal opinion at least, not at ALL mutually exclusive with either or both plots being beneficial to the narrative of SPN purely for the sake of the narrative - ie. I think Dean being bi and/or getting with Cas makes complete sense for the story of the show and the characterisation of both characters and would easily fit with the tone and structure etc. of the show, irregardless of LGBTQ+ representation).
I differ over one small thing - SUBTEXT IS TEXT. IT IS IT IS. If subtext were not a legitimate, sometimes even vital, element of fiction then all English Lit classes and degrees would be pointless. SUBTEXT IS TEXT. And sometimes, sometimes, it IS in fact BETTER for certain story elements to remain subtext. Looking at things from a purely narrative POV, I do believe there IS an argument that Dean/Cas as a romance MIGHT be BETTER as a subtextual story. Though I don’t know if I agree with that argument, I consider it a valid argument.
What I 100% agree with, however, is that having queer narratives ONLY in the subtext part of the text of the majority of media is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We NEED more explicitly textual queer narratives.
Do we need the queer narrative of Dean/Cas to be one such explicit queer narrative… I don’t know :/ I can only speak for myself and say, as I have many times, that I personally don’t need the narrative to be more than subtext, although I would LIKE it to be more. But then, unlike the OP, I’m not a member of the LGBTQ+ community, so my personal feelings on this issue are not really the most important.
The above is a good read though - if you haven’t looked it over already I recommend it x
Oh hey, I only just noticed that you reblogged this and commented on it. Sorry! I’ve not been on tumblr regularly in the past few months. But I do want to reply to your comments, so here goes.
Subtext isn’t text. If subtext were text, there wouldn’t have to be an extra word for it. I’m not trying to sound rude, it’s just that as a queer person who’s been desperately clinging to her favorite media’s subtext her entire life, this distinction is vital to me. Subtext is not text. Subtext is vital to making a story interesting, it’s an integral part of any narrative, because the point of stories is to make people think, and reflect and wonder. If you lose the subtext part of a narrative, what you’re doing is essentially selling people a 2-D drawing of a house and expecting them to live in it.
But that doesn’t make subtext text. To stay with the house metaphor, text is what the house looks like from the outside. Does it have one or two floors, does it have windows, are there curtains, is there a garden or maybe just a paved front yard. Standing outside the house with someone else, you’re both going to see the same thing. Nobody can argue with there being a garden if there is, in fact, a garden. Once you go inside, you’re on your own. Subtext isn’t tangible. You can’t look at subtext with someone else, because subtext will always be filtered through your own individual interpretation and perception. You can agree on subtextual interpretations that are likely, but … take Destiel as an example. The implication is there. It’s all over the subtext. As someone who analyzes media for a living, I know I can say with a certain level of objectivity that it’s not just crazy fangirls making shit up. But it’s not text, which means that anyone who feels like it can dismiss a queer interpretation as the rambling of crazy, sex-obsessed, teenage fangirls. (incomprehensiblemetaphor also wrote a short comment in reply to you that I thought made a very concise point of why subtext isn’t text.)
I’m not sure I can look at this from an exclusively narrative perspective, considering I’m queer myself, but even when I do try, I don’t see Supernatural being better off leaving Destiel subtext. I can’t help comparing it to the X-Files. Dean and Cas have had the same kind of relationship development as Mulder and Scully did. Mulder and Scully never got overly explicit, but it was made textual—just because they’d been playing with it for six seasons. If the X-Files PTB had just left it as it was, it would have felt like a loose end—and I feel like the same is true for Dean and Cas. Dean is portrayed as the quintessential guy-who-can’t-keep-relationships, Cas is portrayed as the fish out of the water, the odd one out who just wants to be accepted and do the right thing. The way Dean’s and Cas’ relationship has been developed, they’re being groomed to be the perfect match for each other, surviving betrayals and death and war and still coming out of all of it as very close friends. Not hooking them up, or exploring that possibility, at least, would feel like a loose end, because it’s been built up so much. Basically, SPN is past the point of getting off the pot. At this point, not making the possibility of Dean and Cas as a romantic couple textual would be a loss for the overall narrative and would destabilize its structure.
Though I sadly must agree with your latest post that I don’t believe Destiel will be made canon. It kinda looked like it might happen for a while, but judging by more recent comments made at cons and by writers, I don’t see SPN being at a point where they’re ready to go there. Unlike you, that does make me angry. Not because I feel like SPN promised me anything, but because as I said in my original post: it’s time. And SPN would be in a good position to do it. But alas, they likely won’t.
Hello and welcome to The Misha Project, the first ever three-in-one Misha Collins Birthday collaboration. This year, since it will be his 40th, we decided to do a bigger birthday event to celebrate how it must be a conspiracy since he doesn’t even look 40…What is The Misha Collin's Project?
The Misha Project is a mission to add a little bit more joy to Misha Collins’ 40th birthday through the combined creations of a birthday message video, a site to publish and share well-wishing birthday messages, and a fundraising charity event for Random Acts, the very organization he co-founded.Ooh, what is this video thing you speak of?
This “video thing” will be a Happy Birthday message created from footage all of you submit! The content of the videos sent in will be such things as you telling Misha how he has positively affected your life, what you admire most about him, or just a simple “Happy Birthday Misha”! All of these will be edited into one video, which will then be sent to Misha on his birthday. For more details about making your video, how to submit it, and what the final product will look like, please visit the Video Guidelines page.
ALL VIDEOS MUST BE SUBMITTED BY AUGUST 1st 2014, 11:59 PM (US PST)Well, I wanna know more about this Birthday Message site!
The “Happy Day of Birth Misha!” site is a place where you can write a birthday message to Misha on a website whose link will be included in the video sent to him. You can post anything from a simple Happy Birthday, to adding a picture and writing a long post to go with it! Anything goes, as long as the content is appropriate and pertains to Misha Collins’ birthday in some shape or form. A more detailed Terms of Posting will be displayed when you click “Submit”. To visit the site, please click here.
THERE IS NO DUE DATE, BUT PLEASE NOTE THAT MISHA’S BIRTHDAY IS AUGUST 20th, SO ANY MESSAGES LEFT AFTER THAT DATE WILL HAVE A LOWER CHANCE OF BEING SEEN BY HIM.Ok, I just really want to support Misha through his charity. How are you doing that?
An event titled “The Misha Birthday Project 2014” is posted on CrowdRise. CrowdRise is a website which allows people to host events to fund-raise for a specifically chosen charity. Random Acts has an account with this service, so all money raised from this event will go directly to the organization. The final goal has been set to $1,000 USD . The event is located here.
Feel free to participate in any or all of these events, or if you are unable to participate in any, please signal boost via reblogging or sending a link to The Misha Project to any of your friends who may be interested!
Please feel free to send an ask if you have any inquiries at all, and read through the information on the official site as it goes into more detail than here.
Thank you so much, and please do have fun with this! I would so love to have this do well so Misha sees just how much we truly do care about him, and what better way would that be done than with this style of project?
Thank you all once more!
Crowley being the last one alive at the end of season 10 and right before the end credits you just see him holding a contract and he looks at the camera and says “Looks like your 10 years are up, love. Be sure to leave your feelings behind for the next show.”
and then he disappears and as the screen fades to black all you hear is barking and howling getting louder until one final growl is heard and then silence.
Misha Collins handing out coffee to people in Hall H.
Let’s show Misha some love by making this gif the most reblogged gif of all of tumblr!
Wouldn’t this be sweet considering that Jensen in shorts will be the most reblogged picture and Jared in shirt the second most reblogged one? ^_-
Challenge accepted, let’s do this!
Thank you so much!! Have a follow!!! <3 <3 <3
Misha deserves our love!
I’ll reblog this everyday i swear. Our overlord needs us guys
where are the freaking NOTES!!!
When this post breaks the tumblr world record Misha will be like:
*sigh* what have my minions done this time? Is my face everywhere again? Are they searching for my nonexistent tumblr? Are they defiling my face with alpacas? What about Bagels? Pancakes? WHAT IS IT THIS TIME??!
Then he would tweet about it.
If he did tweet about it, surely he would be arguing while there are no alpacas! XD
Now I am sad there are none! :p
HOW DOES THIS NOT HAVE MORE NOTES?!?!
I dunno! But I am glad for every single note! *hug* Thank you so much for your comment! You’re an amzing minion! XD
Greyhound Rescue of Atlanta posted this pic on Facebook with the caption “Athletes in retirement”